Overall spell system remake...

[tarashon]

Howdy all

The following is my first ideas for a complete remake of the spells on Alangara, concerning damage spells that is.

Level 1 1d2 * level +10 Area large ( 5 )
Level 2 1d4 * level +20 Area large ( 5 )
Level 3 1d6 * level +30 Area large ( 5 )
Level 4 1d8 * level +40 Area huge ( 6,7 )
Level 5 1d10 * level +50 Area huge ( 6,7 )
Level 6 1d12 * level +60 Area huge ( 6,7 )
Level 7 2d8 * level +80 Area gargantuan ( 8,3 )
Level 8 2d10 * level +100 Area gargantuan ( 8,3 )
Level 9 2d12 * level +150 Area colossal ( 10 )

Single target spells that does not have other additional effects will be given an additional 30% damage boost.

Also some spells were so specific and special in their design that the above damage calculations were impossible to recreate accuratly. In those few cases I have altered them to be very close statisticly. I will not be writing down the formulars for all such small variations.

Together with this change the forge will also be restrcicted in such a manner that you may only place one slot of a specific spell level on an item, meaning no 5*level 9 items....

Further more I want to place a "factor" on all spells via a new custom include file. The purpose of this is multible...

1. Class variation.

Priests = 0.8
Druids = 0.9
Sorcerer = 1
Wizard = 1.1

2. Over all balance.

To begin with factor 1 but if we decide spells are overall too powerful we scale it down instantly changing all spell damage, and if they need to become more potent we scale it up...

3. Level tweaking.

By adding the nLevel to our overall system we are now capable of tweaking all spell damage for an individual class depending on levels. SO if the sorcerer is too strong at low levels we can pinpoint out those levels for the sorcerer class and adjust overall and the perhaps up their damage at end epic levels if they were too weak there. This option in only implemented at the pure casterclasses including bards.

4. Reborns.

One of the biggest differenses we saw in player power was how strong the melee players became when being reborn whereas the casters did not really gain much besides obviously much better surviveability with the way higher HP ( note that the higher surviveability ment alot also ! ). Now we can add the reborn mark into a factor 1.2 fx granting reborns 20% more damage power on all spells.

5. Hostile

For balance issues hostile casters i.e. monsters will get a small token "hostile caster". The nHostile is currently set to 40% so basically monsters casting spells will do 40% damage.

6. Touched
For diversity and challange reasons "Touched" monsters will get a small token "touched caster". The nTouched is currently set to 125% , making "Touched" casters effectively do 50% spelldamage instead of 40%.

7. Considering the options of Summoner, Mage and Invoker.

Summoner - Caster gets a summon that is 1 level higher and improved version of the epic ones.

Mage - Factor 1.1 for spell damages.

Invoker - 5% change of critical adding additional 50% damage.

8. Versatility.

Having this intire factor system in place might grants us other option in time. I know fx some servers pretty much just up the damage per caster level a % way. Well via the new include file we could do that. We even have the future options to tweak more level oriented this way if we realise that the casters were fx completely overpowered at level 1-10 and underpowered at level 35-40 , well then we can have the generel system in palce like described above but via the include file adjust those levels however we see fit - ME LIKE, and ME THINK ME CLEVER !

Or add quest to specialize in fx a specific spell of chose, or what know I. Anyways I believe this intire concept might add both balance, fun and playability both to caster players but also making the adversary casters more flexible and interesting.

- - - -

On a sidenote I am considering to makes this factor also a part of the overall healing system so that priests will heal better than druids with the same spell. Likely priests having factor 1.1 and druids 0.8 or 0.9. Reason is that druids are now extremely upgraded compared to standard and compared to priests so time to actually be a little nice to the priests and not so much to the druids

- - - -

As always feel free to comment

/tara

[Twilighteyes]

Question 1. Will level caps be removed from
Spells? Burning hands vanilla version is inferior to magic missile in that: A. It allows reflex save B. It caps at (IIRC) 5d4 damage. If level caps are removed this would allow spells like burning hands to actually be something useable throughout a characters life.

Question 2. What of the effects of the feats Maximize and Empower? These spells only affect variable damage numbers (I.e. Dice rolls) and with the new system would SEEMINGLY render them all but useless.

Those two questions aside I like the general look of it and would happily play test it out with Rani just to see the results. I also REALLY agree with the healing factor, clerics (as powerful as they are here) should still be the "go to" for healing with Druids being a secondary source.

Monster casters? I already hate them without my SR up!! I guess since we are getting increases so should they but again your right.. Without SR or a group a small mob of arcane hostiles will turn a PC to a pile of steaming yuck in seconds SOOOO a lesser factor for them is feasible.

I vote do it, test it, adjust accordingly.

[BenevolentDevil]

Ran into a yeti that was ghosted ,a boss I think.
Incartus and I throwed everything we had at it, and didn't really even scratch it lol.

The yetis on the way there, the casters ... that bigsby's hand , is a royal pain ... I am not sure monster casters are under-powered.

[tarashon]

Howdy

The problem with monster casters ( some of them ) is that they are often ...

A. Limited in spells since they are in effect not really casters but have been given a number of special powers making them seem to be casters.

B. They caster levels are often inferior to their real level and in particular the level of the PCs doing battle with them thus making Spell resistance "99%" complete spellimunity. Also fx items with SR 20 seems to be very effective against even some rather highlevel casters - which was not really intented and thus making "fighters" stronger against magic than intended.

C. A huge limitation in my choice of spells since i dont want to just kill players. Thus some higher level caster mobs actually are specifically limited in the spelltypes to make sure they dont damage too much. a monster factor would allow me to basically let some true caster mobs be just that and having level 30 in epic zones, but still having their damages way lower also reflecting and taking into account that it might be 3 or 4 casters firering off whatever... more or less simoultaneously.

-----

Yes all spells would then be unlimited level wise. All ready as it is now many if not all of the commonly used spells are if not unlimited then WAY higher than standard.

----

I fail miserably to see how empower or maximize would not work on the above mentioned spells. All of them are exactly d(X) spells making maximize or empower work on them. However using this template many spells wont really need to be maximized or empowered since basically using a higher level spells makes more damage as it is. When I look at the numbers though it might be some spells might gain a small benefit using these feats but basically the feats in themselves - the more one consider them - are kind of idiotic.

"Hey i have this cool idea that we make lower level spells do more damage than the higher level spells by casting them as higher levels spells instead"... really what's fungus abusing archmage came up with that idea in the first place ???

The only point possible to find was that the scaling of spells in NWN in itself is absolutely horrible, and that PnP wise you might limit the access to certain spells making it a viable option to empower/maximize those spells you actually know... Other than that I personally find the intire concept nothing short of inherently stupid, devout of fantasy and a brilliant showcase of lack of intelligens in design. If those feats instead was based upon use X times a day on a given spell retaining its original spell level...wohoo this gives meaning and is actually kinda cool !

In reality as the standard spell are scaled however we all know the IGM's are out of tune with the rest of the spells so everybody empower and maximize these as much as they can - as an exsample of a badly thought out spell system.

However since some spells are special in damage type and cannot be found on many levels it might still be useable to empower or maximize spells even after the changes....

Well those were my thoughts on the standard spell system now that I've actually given it some thought in conjunction with the idea of a complete redesign of damage spells - and over time perhaps many others

----

As for the ghosted yeti it MIGHT have been a touched one. Sometimes it bugs out and the name "touched" or even "furious touched" ( they are even worse ) isn't displayed. as those have lots of temporary HP added its looks like they are not hurt at all since they dont start to show hurt before you start on their actual HP. SO basically a 1000 HP monsters with 1 million temporary HP will stay "undamaged" til its down on around 800 HP...

Also the Ghost effect, as I recall all they howlers actually cast it on themselves , might hide the yellow ghost effect that comes with being touched or furious touched.

/tara

[BenevolentDevil]

I think it was a boss Yeti, it had a unique name.
Because it was ghosted, you miss 50% of the time ... IF you make a to hit roll.

Jess threw three full wands of fireballs , her breath weapon, and 6 ray of frost ( which did more damage than the fireballs lol ) , occasionally Incartus would physically hit the beast, but I believe i'ts regen was negating that damage done, so it wasn't that we did any good.

Jess had a hard time with the normal caster yetis ... I couldn't figure out if it was the bigsby's hand spell, the succubi , or what ... but she'd be fine, and all of a sudden just wouldn't be able to hit anything ... , she'd get knocked down occasionally , and a few times Incartus had to rez her because , once she went down , the mob didn't let her get back up.

Now, Jess has no dispel or disjunction to use, and since these are monster powers and not spells, not sure if having dispel of disjunction would even work ... and we tried out waiting the Yeti Boss , to see if his Ghost buff would drop over time, and I suppose it does not ... Incartus went through two cycles of buff spells , and Jess did three times ...
The Yeti remained steadfast and strong.

Jess spent a great deal more potions and items in that fight, and like I said, we never really did anything, didn't even slow the creature down ...

I thought the end boss to the water spirit quest was hard to defeat , lol ... or that Ancient Library quest you and I did ... the yetis are basically the first casters I have ran up against since my return , and WOW , do they pack a punch! The other attack spells they have Jess is practically immune to , any fire now she's safe, most cold , and the shield spell negates the Magic Missles and such. So I can't comment on those much, but if I was playing any other character ... they probably would have been very effective.

[BenevolentDevil]

"Hey i have this cool idea that we make lower level spells do more damage than the higher level spells by casting them as higher levels spells instead"... really what's fungus abusing archmage came up with that idea in the first place ???

My friend, I am so glad you get sarcasm in our english language!

And I always agreed with your statement too. I was like, ( especially in NWN ) , you spend a WHOLE feat for empower , still, and the other spell feat, only to be "punished" for taking said feats.

Where as a fighter ... if taking say Improved Critical , gets that bonus with no punishment on any weapon already in use, doesn't matter if teh wepaon is normal or +1000 ... that feat works, yet casters taking caster feats, get shafted by loosing out on extra spells they could be casting.

I thought , empower should empower ALL memorized spells if you have the feat. Not just one, that takes a higher level slot to memorize.

[Twilighteyes]

LOL!!

Ok so empower and maximize (with the new template) will now be swapped for spell focus and spell penetration!!! OR like I already do: prep base heals, prep maxed heals, prep empowered heals and prep still'd heals...

I really never understood why someone would want to maximize 10d6 worth of damage at a cost of a spell slot 3 levels higher, except MAYBE to increase the spell save but meh!!

[tarashon]

Howdy again

First as for the yetiboss he is a rather tough critter. You only need him to move on to a much harder area or to complete a certain quest granting you permanent +1 to all stats so he is suposed to be so hard as to be a group encounter

Now as for the spell system devellopment i have now started to create it. unfortunately i am not good enough to be able to design how i import one INT from a includefile to the main spellfiles so i've uploaded my problems and current designed scripts to Seeker for him to have a look at.

However if he can get this to work ( which i am 99.9999% sure he can ) we will have an incredible flexible system with "endless" options to further customize over time.

So far it includes

A.

nBasic - an overall factor to tweak the damage of all spells using the new system.

B.

nLevel - The ability to tweak damage per level per class. So far this only includes sorcerer, wizard. druid, cleric and bards as I consider these main casters. So now we can find out the clerics NEEDS a little better damage from level 30 to 40 , sure things we adjust their damage with whatever % we want at those given levels individually !

C.

nClass - this is an overall indicator for special classes. so far wizards get +10% , druids -10% and Clerics -20%. all others are not being adjusted so far.

D.

nReborn - Reborn Casters gets +20% to all spell damage.

I really really really hope that this can be made to works since we can basically create our spells dreadfully cool like this.

Also I am strongly considering creating a rather simply system where anyone with the empower or maximize feats can get an item that in turn can be activated fx ones a day to summon a small temporary spellglobe for fx 30 sec or whatever ( like the energy globes of the RSS quest ). While this is in effects we can then set spell damage to be adjusted as well or we could have the item be shifted as per levels so fx level 1to 1 is one time per day 11 to 20 is 2 times etc....

Once again this system is so amazingly flexible that if only Seeker can help me make the "import nFactor" work I can run amok in misguided creativity haha

/tara

[Somnium]

Hi Tara, I took a look at your uploaded scripts, see my comments there

[tarashon]

Awesome and thanks alot !

I'll be messing with this in a few hours and if I get it to work ill be running amok scripting all day

/tara